In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Associate Editor Byron Hurd for a recap of the past week's worldwide debuts along with some updates from their recent adventures. They start off discussing the rumors of a new Ford Mustang Raptor and what that means in the context of previous rumors of a Corvette SUV. Then it's time to talk Shanghai, where Polestar, Buick, Volkswagen, Porsche and Lincoln all had big reveals. After that, they segue to Byron's trip to Moab for the 2023 Easter Jeep Safari preview where he drove the AEV Level II Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 20th Anniversary Edition. From there, they reminisce about Mustangs in a nod to the nameplate's 59th anniversary, after which they stick to the theme with a sub-$15,000 RWD used-car discussion. Is there anything worth buying in this price bracket in today's economy?
Transcript[ROCK MUSIC]
GREG MIGLIORE: Welcome back to "The Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. We have an awesome show for you today. We're going to get right to some meat-and-potatoes enthusiast stuff. We're going to talk about rumors about the Corvette SUV and rumors about, well, basically an SUV sort of thing-- version of the Mustang. "Car and Driver" has-- they've thrown some logs onto the rumor fire-- let's put it that way-- for both of these iconic American sports cars. So with that, I'll bring in associate editor Byron Hurd. What's going on, dude?
BYRON HURD: Hey, enjoying this fresh, actual spring, now that it seems like we had a false spring and then a little fresh hit of winter, and now it seems like maybe this is the real thing. So I'm feeling encouraged.
GREG MIGLIORE: It feels like actual spring. I just took the dog for a walk. Crystal clear, blue sky, Golden Retriever at a park-- it's perfect. Let me put it that way. But yeah, to your point, it snowed the other day. Three days ago, I golfed, and we were playing outside in the sprinklers. So it's really been all over the place with this weather, but that's OK.
So yeah, a couple of other things we got going on here. We will try to spend some money-- not exactly your money. We're going talking about the end of the line for the Kia Stinger. I can't believe it's finally done. We've got a bunch of reveals this week we'll talk about. And you had some fun driving not only your 2011 Jeep Wrangler but a bunch of Jeeps out at the Easter Jeep Safari. So it's been a minute. Been meaning to talk about that for two or three weeks, and here we finally are.
So yeah, it's good weather, some cool cars. I think it's just getting to be that time of the year when you can really enjoy being a car enthusiast. I went to a Cars on Coffee on Saturday when it hit 84 or 85 or something. Just felt like the middle of July. So many cool cars there, and it's just-- it feels like it's that time of year.
I will say this-- Cars and Coffee in Detroit-- in Metro Detroit-- are very competitive. I had to street park my Bentley Bentayga, which comes in at at least 250. I don't have the Monroney in front of me. But I had to put that down the block, just like it was a rental Chevy Cruze or something. But there was a '61 Maserati there. There was a Ferrari Dino.
For those of you listening, you probably have know of the cult kind of favorite pasttime there is Cars and Coffee, Saturday mornings in Metro Detroit. But yeah, it was pretty wild this weekend.
BYRON HURD: Good times.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right, so Mustang-- this is an interesting look-ahead piece from "Car Driver." Definitely want to give credit where credit's due. They wrote this a couple of days ago. It's about a Mustang Raptor. This is one of their "Cars Worth Waiting For" section. They got kind of a cool illustration on there.
And this is sort of In the line of the-- like the Sterato from Lamborghini. And having seen that just a couple of weeks ago in New York, I was really taken by it. And then I, of course-- we all check out "Car Driver." I saw their story. I thought, well, jeez, Mustang should probably do this.
I think it's-- as you look at the end of the line for the current generation and generations of Mustang as we know it, I think this is a very natural evolution. It'd be totally different. It would be like an iconic cult hit, if you will. And if Lambo could do it, I think Ford could do it. And Ford already has all the great Raptor tech. So yeah, I think they should. What do you think of this thing?
BYRON HURD: I think it's interesting. If this is what we're going to do to have fun with Mustangs, then I'm all for it. Fun cars are fun cars, whether it's like 911 Dakar or something like that, where it's maybe not the traditional way you're supposed to do the fast version of a given thing. But it's certainly fascinating. And if they can pull it off and it's a competent holistic package, then I'm all for it.
It may not necessarily be my cup of tea, but it certainly sounds like it could be pretty badass, which I'm sure is really the point. Whatever makes headlines and sells Mustangs and whatever else they want to sell.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I think it's-- I actually tend to think the body style of the Mustang could actually really lend it to it, to be honest. I think not every single sports car would fit. It's kind of like an off-road truck, but I think the Mustang works.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, I agree. Especially the rear end-- the fenders of it are almost kind of made for something. When you look at the rendering that "Car and Driver" did, it looks like a Mustang, which-- not anything like this that gets thrown out there as a design study or make it up to match what we think it's going to be-- rendering. It actually pulls it off. But it does actually look like a convincing production off-road Mustang.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, so we will have a story up by the time you listen to this with our take on it, so definitely check that out. Shifting gears over to Corvette. This is another "Car Driver" look-ahead. As an enthusiast, I think "Car Driver" and "Automotive News" do a really good job of trying to see into the future, if you will, with their future product issues.
And this is another one, about the Corvette SUV, which we've all heard about. The electric Corvette is already here, the e-Ray. The first one just sold for like $1.1 million last weekend.
It's interesting because-- I was on LinkedIn over the weekend. To me it's almost like the new Facebook for work stuff. It's interesting. But Mark Reuss, who's the president of General Motors, is pretty active on that platform. It seems to be a place we've all ended up with Twitter and Facebook and other things going other ways-- let's put it that way. [LAUGHS]
He actually threw some shade out. He was like, yeah, I don't know about this one. I don't have his response exactly in front of me, but it was a clap-back, like, I don't know. Slow your roll there, "Car Driver." And he would know. But at the same time, you never know. Sometimes executives like to say, well, that's not it, but it's like they're pretty close. They're closer than you want to admit.
I would bet you a box of donuts that Corvette does an SUV sooner rather than later, in some form. I don't actually really like their illustration. No offense. I just don't think that's quite how it's going to look, in my opinion, but we'll see. We'll see. It would definitely make it a valuable addition to the lineup. That's for sure.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, I'm with you. The form that it's going to take is really the key. I see this doing well, honestly, if it leans kind of more toward what they suggested for the Mustang, where it's still a coupe but like a lifted, ofd-roadie coupe.
And the thing with Corvette is that it's just-- it's too dedicated of a sports car, I think, to really lean too far toward a 4-by-4. So it's going to be an on-road performance machine. Like, with Mustang, it's like, yeah, they're a little rough and ready. It's the kind of thing where you could buy somebody building their own version, so why shouldn't Ford?
But with Corvette, like apart from like the weird little go-karts we see people make out of like busted old C4 and C5 Corvettes to take to auto crosses and stuff like that, it's not the kind of thing where you think, oh, this is a car that needs to be like a dune-buggy style performance vehicle. So if it's going to be a performance SUV, I'm assuming we're talking near-slick tires, made for the road, going after Porsche type stuff, and that kind of thing, and not something that would play in the same space as the 911 Dakar or this hypothetical Mustang.
But it's an interesting idea, and I can understand why everybody wants to do this kind of thing. They want to try and find ways to transition their performance brands away from what they've traditionally done. But at the same time, there's still a demand for what they've traditionally done. You don't want to water that down too much.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think the Corvette's a little bit of a unique case in the fact that-- if you look at like what Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo have done, they've always had new nameplates for their SUVs or their crossovers. There is no 911 SUV. So I think you ought to be careful if you're going to make the Corvette have a body style that really does diverge from, historically, what it's been. Like a 911 SUV-- a lot of people wouldn't like that. I think you've got to protect your icon.
We'll see. the Mustang Mach-E has worked, as a crossover, better than I would have thought, frankly. I think they just did it and lived with the fallout, and the fallout wasn't that bad. So I think that's actually a pretty good test case for how you could try to swing it. But we'll see.
The other thing, too, though, is the Corvette-- now there's an electric version of it. And it is this high-performance thing, whereas pony cars-- you could argue that segment may not have as long to live, whereas I think there's always going to be a segment for high-end, powerful, expensive sports cars, which-- the Corvette does compete on a world-class level.
So that's quite the rumor. Let's put it that way. Have some fun with that. But I guess we'll bring things back into the present day and talk about the Stinger. They're putting out a end-of-life model to send the car out right. This was always very impressive, I think, addition to the Kia lineup. They did go with a rear-wheel drive V8 sports sedan at a time when nobody was doing that.
You want to talk about coming late to the party-- you are closing down the bar, setting the smoke alarms, and Kia's knocking on the door saying, hey, let's do shots. And they went big, too. I mean, you could get all-wheel drive. There were a number of different powertrains. I thought it looked pretty good.
We had a long-termer for a year and liked it. It didn't get as much use as I thought it would have, in some ways, but we definitely still liked it for what it was. As a guy who likes rear-wheel drive cars, sedans, sorry to see it go. Not at all shocked because we've known it's going away. If you like the Stinger, this is a nice way to try something different.
The Stinger, I think, is very competitive with the Charger and 300. If you're not a Mopar person, you might look at this and think, hey, I like how that looks. I want that. So I don't know. Do you have any stinger memories?
BYRON HURD: Yeah, well, I was on the launch for that car. And so I remember driving the first couple of variants that they came out with and liking it quite a bit. I actually haven't driven one in several years. But it was really good.
And Kia kind of-- it's one of those cases I think where you have engineers calling the bluff of so-called consumers, like people who say, oh, if you build a car like this, I'll buy it. And then they build it, and look what happens.
The Stinger was kind of the bluff to all the enthusiasts who said, well, if Dodge built a lighter Charger that was a little bit smaller and had more efficient engines, I would totally go buy one, even if it still had an automatic. And Kia said, here you go, and suddenly nobody showed up.
So it's-- this happens fairly frequently. And honestly, I feel like half the time it happens, it's usually GM that it happens to. So for once, seeing it happen to another manufacturer is novel just by itself. But yeah, this one's a shame. And I would like to see Stinger come back.
And I honestly think-- the way they positioned it-- it could be revived. Just leaning back into the conversation we were just in, you lift it an inch and a half-- it was already a liftback. So you just kind of like lean into the proportions a little bit with the style, and you probably wouldn't even have to make it that much taller to pull it off. It's like a crossover coupe type thing.
So that's on the table, I guess, if they think there's enough equity left in it to actually try, which I don't see them doing in any kind of hurry with electrification being the big push right now. But it's a shame. And it would be great to see it come back on even on an electric car. It was an interesting and fun car, and an underrated car. It's kind of a shame it's going away, but that's the times we live in, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I mean-- frankly, I loved it, but it was outdated the minute it came-- it became a thing. So I they did a good job of living up to the promise of exactly what they said they were going to do. I remember they showed the concept-- I think it was Detroit. Just shows you how long ago-- it wasn't even the biggest reveal of that auto show in Detroit. It was just like, oh, yeah, there's Kia's concept. It was later in the day. It wasn't even that big a deal compared to whatever else was shown that year. But it was a great concept, is my point. And then they lived up to it. They executed. It's a fun car to drive. But there's other fish to fry.
All right, so that's our rumors and rear-wheel-drive opening. Let's talk about some actual news-- things that are pretty new this week. Just going to run through these. There were a bunch of reveals the last, probably, 10 days. There was an auto show two weeks ago. It seems like-- I don't know-- maybe they could have revealed some of these cars there. It might have been useful. People might have cared. I digress.
But there's a lot of stuff here. And the Shanghai Motor Show is also this week, too, if you're listening to it. So not a ton of implications for the United States, but some interesting stuff. Check out our coverage. Anyways, Polestar Four was revealed this week. It's like this lifted, fastback sort of thing, grows the Polestar lineup.
It doesn't exactly have a traditional rear window, which is super weird. Stylistically, it looks great-- maybe one of the best looking Polestars yet, so to speak, and we've seen a few of them now. Maybe not as good as the Polestar One, which was know the Grand Touring, the OG of whatever-- the whole brand. But I like this one. I'm impressed with it.
BYRON HURD: I like the look of it, but I am not thrilled with this no rear window thing. Even if it's an abbreviated rear window or we're not calling it a rear window-- because it's just a mail slot or whatever-- whatever manufacturers are going to try to do with this creeping away the rear window thing-- I'm not here for it at all.
It instills almost claustrophobia in me to just think about not having visibility out of the rear without digital aid. That's ambitious. And I understand the applications for camera technology and display technology for things like this. But when it comes to just basic outward visibility, I don't really think there's any way to beat a good old-fashioned window.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, fair enough. For what it's worth, I didn't say I didn't like the lack of window. I just like the general design-- the aesthetics.
BYRON HURD: And same. I'm with you there. Yeah. I'd be happy to look at it and happy to take it for a spin, but you certainly won't catch me buying one. I'm going to draw the line at rear window. I need it to stay.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's not an unreasonable place to draw the line either. Like, wait a minute. This car doesn't have a rear window? Hello.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, so-- and I drove a Challenger for several years, so I value rear visibility quite a bit. And yeah, that's something that I'm going to put my foot down.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right, let's talk about news out of Buick, which we don't often do. The Envista is officially a thing. This one blew up a little bit on social media. People were, I think, a little surprised at how good it looks. They're coming in hot on the price.
Generally, Buick doesn't go totally on price. They're coming in hard-- less than $24,000. So check out the story. News editor Joel Stocksdale wrote it up. You got to look at the pictures. I could be crazy, but I thought I saw one of these on the road the other day. I was just walking through the park with-- again, the aforementioned Golden Retriever.
And I was like, wow, that's the new Buick logo, OK. That looks pretty good. What the hell is that thing? It didn't fit with what I was thinking of Buicks. So of course, the whole, that's a Buick, catchphrase is screaming.
BYRON HURD: Right. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: But I kept going. I just figured it was something else, maybe an Envision or something. But when I look at these pictures, I'm like, that's what I saw. I don't know, though.
BYRON HURD: Hidden in plain sight.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, but I like it. I guess I'm 2 for 2 of designs I like. They grabbed it from-- it was the Wildcat concept from a while ago, and I think that's a good move. With fewer mouths to feed at General Motors, they've condensed brands in the last, obviously, decade-- it feels like they're really coming at coming at you with some pretty solid designs. And Buick, I think, has been a benefit of that.
BYRON HURD: Yeah I agree. I think this looks really good, too. I'm not super thrilled about the rear-- the kind of swoopy greenhouse termination, the almost floating look to it in the rear quarter. But honestly, like if this thing were two inches lower on-- just drop the stance a little bit, I think it would be crazy hot. It's a good looking little CUV.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, no, I agree. It's a crossover coupe. And that makes a ton of sense for Buick, too, because you've already got the GMC brand, which is trucks and SUVs and crossovers. General Motors can do some things with Buick, which, ostensibly, probably doesn't need crossovers. That's not true anymore, but there was a time when they were positioning GMC as SUVs and trucks, Buick as the complementary-- for a minute, it was like European sports sedan brand. That wouldn't make any sense in this day and age. But crossover coupes-- I think that is a good market for Buick-- a place to be.
All right, then there is VW se flagship, the ID.7. We've seen this-- our European correspondent, Ronan Glon, who you've worked with at different points, has already driven it. So then, naturally, they would do another reveal, this time in New York, oddly enough a week after the New York Auto Show.
If you're the New York Auto Show, what are you thinking when VW reveals a car in New York literally 48 hours after the public days of your show end? I don't know. If that doesn't sort of be the kick in the teeth as far as auto shows, I don't know what does. It's timed with, I believe, the Shanghai Motor Show, but yeah, man.
So again I don't quite love this one as much, I guess. There's three different designs here. They're not related to each other, other than we're just all talking to them, so comparisons are relative. I don't know. To me, it looks like a longer, lower ID.4. And I think the ID.4 looks better as a crossover than it does as this like sedan. It's tripping out of my mouth. It's a sedan.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, and honestly, the wagon version of this that we've seen renderings of and stuff for Europe-- I think there might even be like an actual production wagon out there somewhere.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BYRON HURD: I think it wears it a little more elegantly just because the sedan looks so long like that. The scrunched greenhouse and the punched-out front and rear makes it look really, really big, like we're talking minivan big, which I don't know that that's necessarily the comparison they were hoping for. But it looks like a lot of car.
Honestly, I think it looked better-- I saw the prototype of this in LA at a preview event that we weren't allowed to talk about for a while. But they had it covered in that electrochromatic paint, which covered up the greenhouse lines and everything, and it made the car look a little bit taller and not quite as long.
So I think part of it is-- we're being ruined by the monotone color of these. Maybe once we start to see them in black and some other darker colors, that'll work a little bit better. But especially the white and black two-tone that they're using on the concept photos really makes it look ungainly to me. I'm not a fan.
GREG MIGLIORE: This is probably not going to be a huge-volume play in the United States. I do rag on the New York reveal with the Auto Show thing. But it's going to launch in China and Europe first, and that's where there is still some critical mass for sedans. That's where Volkswagen, of course, is based, speaking of Europe, specifically. And you did have the Auto Show this year in China that they're trying to capitalize on. So to be a little more specific, that's what they're doing. But part of me just thinks this is a Phaeton, you know? Do you remember that thing?
BYRON HURD: Yeah, oh, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: [LAUGHS]
BYRON HURD: Oh, poor Phaeton.
GREG MIGLIORE: We'll leave it there. We'll leave it there. New Cayenne-- some critical updates for the 2024 model year. Speaking of just sports car brands with SUVs, this is one of the original ones-- the OG. Porsche rolled out the cayenne 20-some years ago. Now it basically keeps them alive in many ways. Yeah, I mean, this is just another-- if you're a Cayenne buyer for 2024, it's going to be a little bit better for you.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, it's-- I don't know. This one is another one that I'm on the fence about, honestly. And I realize it wasn't as significant as a styling update as it could have been. But I think-- honestly, I think the coupe somehow got better, which-- and I wasn't a huge fan of the way the cayenne coupe looked. And the standard one got worse. It's hard to say. It's hard to tell with some of these changes. But yeah, it could be a lot worse.
GREG MIGLIORE: The too-long-- well, please read, actually, is "More Power and More Screens." That's our headline, so that's what you need to know, and that seems to be where luxury brands are going for the next few years, until they get to be electric, which is more power and more screens, sometimes more design, styled-up design, but it seems to be what they're doing. Cool.
And then, of course, the Lincoln Nautilus-- wow, Buick and Lincoln in the same segment-- I can hardly contain it. It's a pretty important reveal for Lincoln, naturally. It goes into a segment that is definitely critical. You've already got pricing. It starts at just under $52,000. So that is just out, as of today.
That's a good move. I've been kind of ragging on automakers' launch strategies. But they get it out there, and then they get the pricing right after it. So smart there. There's a configurator, too.
This also has a pretty strong tie-in to what's going on in China. It's going to be built in China, for starters. So I imagine there is some mention of this at that Motor Show as well. But it's coming here. There's a new hybrid powertrain.
If you look at it, it looks a little sleeker. In some ways, I almost think it's less distinctive than it was before-- a little cleaner. But when I look at it, it's almost like, is that-- it's got some hallmarks, like the headlights, the tail lights, the grill. But just from the side, it's like-- it could be a Land Rover. It could be a Hyundai. It could be anything in between, so yeah. That's the Nautilus.
BYRON HURD: I like it.
GREG MIGLIORE: You like it?
BYRON HURD: I like it. Yeah, the black label, especially with that interior, looks really, really good. I'd take that a lot. I think they did a good job with that one.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right, sounds good. So I'm 2 and 2, and I think you're 3 and 1, as far as likes for this quasi Auto Show week.
BYRON HURD: It's not bad.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, it's good. That's what going on. Let's talk about what we've been driving. You went out to Moab and drove some of the concepts, and you drove the 20th-anniversary Wrangler Rubicon. That's kind of cool, too. Where do you want to start? You were out there. What do you think?
BYRON HURD: Well, we'll start with, I think, the 20th anniversary of Rubicon just because it's immediately available and real, as opposed to most of the things I saw out there. The real news there is it's stickers and paint and interior, for the most part. And apart from that, it's effectively just-- you check every box on a Wrangler Rubicon, and this is what you get. So effectively, you could call it not a popular equipment package but an all-in equipment package with the specialty stuff, just to make it stand out a little bit.
You do get a half inch of suspension lift out of these, so they just threw that in there, in the margins to be like, oh, by the way, it has amazing new specs. Approach, departure, and breakover angle were all slightly improved. Ride height's improved. Water fording's improved ever so very slightly, which-- it's really just one-upmanship with Ford and the Bronco. Every time someone does another special edition, they got to find another stat where they can get ahead of the other guy, which is great. This is what competition does.
This is why having the Bronco back is great news for Jeep people. There's no downside to this, except the price. You're looking at $70,000 to get into a 4 by E and $90,000 to get into a 392. And then if you want the AEV level two, which actually does get you significantly more ground clearance and beefed-up rock guards and all sorts of stuff like that, then you're spending $90,000 on a 4 by E and 110 or so on a 392?
So the AEV level 2 package for the anniversary edition is the most capable Jeep Wrangler you can buy in a showroom, but you will pay for it. And we were actually talking about this on the drive with some of the other folks who were there-- fellow enthusiasts, Jeepers, just talking about, can you build a truck that can do this for less money? And the answer's probably, no.
But you could probably build a truck that will suit your personal needs for a heck of a lot less money, especially if you start with the updated Willys package, which-- for this year, gets the shortened fenders, so you can fit bigger wheels under it. It's already taller. So it's in a good position to be the canvas for the enthusiast who wants to build their own Rubicon, instead of just buying one from the factory.
And of course, you can still get regular Rubicons. It's not like they went anywhere. But it's impressive, but is it $113,000 impressive? Eh, that's an individual choice. That's Ram TRX money. That's Raptor R money. You can get a whole lot of truck, a whole lot of SUV for six figures these days. So literally, any half ton you wanted you could get for six figures because that's right at the top of the price range. So it's a tough buy for people who aren't Jeepers. If you just have to have the best Jeep Wrangler that money can buy and you don't want to mess with your warranty, then, hey, there you go. You got two options right there.
We also got to preview the 2024s by literally sneaking over looking at them because they were photographing them while we were there. So we just got a quick sneak glance at those. Nothing really to report there, apart from what you've seen in the news. We'll have to actually see how they drive and what the changes do for them.
And then the concepts-- the ones that were actually there to be driven-- the '78 Cherokee was an absolute blast. It was literally just a Wrangler 4 by E four-door that had a '78 Craigslist Cherokee grafted on top of it, effectively. There were parts of the Cherokee they couldn't even salvage and had to chuck. They took little pieces of the tailgate because that was all that wasn't rusted, and they formed them in with some other parts to actually just make it work. Lots of carbon fiber. They hired a street artist to do a mural for the interior of the roof. Very cool car.
But the two real headliners were the 392 Scrambler, which was, basically, a four-door Wrangler chopped down to two doors. Still has the 392 V8 and an air suspension on it. So you can pretty much go over anything in that car, and it makes wonderful noises. In fact, calling it a car is unfair. It's basically just a dune buggy-- a concept they're not going to build, of course, because you can't sell things like that in a showroom, but a really cool one to drive.
And its twin was the Magneto-- the Magneto 3.0, which is Jeep's electric prototype that they've been working on for three years. Well, they've been working on it longer than that. But they've shown us a new version for each of the past three times we've been to Easter Jeep Safari with them, which is a careful way to it, given that the pandemic happened in the middle there.
But it started out as being about as powerful as a Pentastar V6 Wrangler, and now it makes 650 horsepower. It needs a beefed-up Hellcat transmission just to get the torque to the ground. And that's a manual transmission, which is really not functional in a car like that because you basically pick any gear you want and go. You don't need to use the clutch, really, except to change gears. You don't need it to start off. It's really the easiest way in the world to learn how to drive a manual transmission. Only, you don't even have to, so-- and they're never going to build it anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
That's going to be replaced, effectively, by the Recon. So when the Recon becomes a production vehicle, that will be Jeep's electric off-road vehicle, and we should be seeing more on that later this year into next, when It's scheduled to actually hit showrooms. So got to play around with everything out there.
The air suspension in a Wrangler is a new innovation, and they're using aftermarket parts for now. But it's something they're kind of teasing out. And we were talking to some of the Jeep folks. The idea is that this might be something that you get, maybe, in an uprated Sahara package or something like that, for the kind of people who aren't going to off-road very often because it's just another system that adds a lot of complexity, and like the Rubicon crowd doesn't really want air suspension.
It might be nice to be able to crawl under a branch that you can't normally crawl under or ford water you can't normally ford because you can actually adjust your ride height a little bit. But the payoff is really not worth the penalty because if that system breaks on you when you're out in the sticks, you're stuck, especially if it fails down, and you're basically just beached on a rock somewhere in the desert and they can't get you out. So that was Easter Jeep Safari. We get to play with a little bit of everything. The AEV Level Two 20th-Anniversary Rubicons are legit, but you'll pay for them.
GREG MIGLIORE: OK, yeah, that's about what I expected. Every year, it seems like, at Moab, they have some sort of interesting take on-- usually the past and also what-- a peek ahead of what they're going to do.
It's interesting now that we've-- we've had off-roaders, if you will, in the modern era for a while-- they're starting to get old. The 20th-anniversary Rubicon-- I was just talking to senior editor for all things electric, John Snyder, about the 40th-anniversary Forerunner. And people are really like enjoying the paint-and-sticker jobs. They're expensive, but they capture that look in that feel, and it kind of sounds like that's what the Wrangler 20th does. I would like to drive that one this summer. I think that would be a lot of fun, just to have that vibe on a hot summer week.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, it's great. You know that's convertible life and the benefits of 4-by-4s You can't really go wrong with it. And it was interesting-- while we were there, too, there was an individual not affiliated with the program at all who was cruising the trails in their original '03 Wrangler Rubicon. And of course, all the Jeep engineers were going over to chat with them. And there was like, oh, look, here's the new one and all that.
But it was really fascinating to look at the 2003 Rubicon next to a brand new one because the original Rubicon was two door, lifted a little bit, but by today's standards, doesn't really look like much. And you have to consider that, in the 20 years since Rubicon has launched, we have gone away from the original formula for off-road, which was as tall as you can get away with but on the shortest wheelbase possible, which is terrible for on-road stability, but it's fantastic for rock crawling.
And Jim Morrison was telling us that-- Jim from Jeep was telling us that the new philosophy is essentially-- still get the biggest tires you can underneath those fenders, but you can add wheelbase to do it. So now we have these big, longer, more comfortable, more stable off-road vehicles that still manage to be even more capable than the smaller rigs from just 10, 20 years ago.
So it's an interesting kind of shift in the industry, and a lot of it is just brought on by the friendliness toward SUVs that consumers have shown over the last decade and a half or two. But we're a lot more welcoming and a lot more willing to consider things that, 20 years ago, would have been outrageous to us.
So we've crept into this new era of what makes it good off-roader. And it'll be interesting to see how that translates to electrification, because we have all the torque we need in the world now to drive huge-ass tires. So you can put 40-inch tires underneath the fenders of a modern car if you're putting electric motors in it because they can actually turn them. So it's going to be interesting to see what electrification does for 4-by-4s over the next 10 to 20 years, I guess? We'll do it all over again and see what happens.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, no, you look at brands like VW with the Scout brand. Things like that are going to really shake this up. And that also means you know transitions for the Bronco and the Wrangler. And I think now it'd be a good time for General Motors to get into it. They can skip the internal combustion and go straight electric.
You and I had lunch with some people from Toyota. That was cool-- earlier this week. And I was under the impression you were driving this bedraggled, wrecked, old Wrangler, and you rolled up and this 2011 Wrangler with lovely tan paint and-- you know, nice 10-year-old-ish Jeep. And I was like, oh, that's really cool. So I guess I didn't know you had that. Yeah, how's that one going? I think people like to hear about what we're driving. That's a nice vintage of Jeep.
BYRON HURD: It's OK. It's model year makes it kind of a-- a bit of a cast-off, I suppose, because it has the old 3.8-liter minivan engine in it. And I mean, of course, no one calls it minivan engine, to be kind. So that's kind of what you're dealing with.
So my father originally purchased it new. And when he bought his JL, the current one, in 2018, he offered the old one to me. And I, of course, would never turn down a Wrangler. This is the second time I've done this with him. He buys a new Wrangler, and I basically buy his old one. So it works out for me because I get cheap Wranglers that I get to do whatever I want with. And it works out for him because he gets a brand new one to show off every time I come around and realize how old and crappy mine is.
But the sport JK's held up pretty well. It's got some issues here and there, but for the most part, it's a pretty active winter beater for me. And it's about to come off-- the Nokian Outpost AT tires that they loaned us for that one, which-- we'll have another snow update coming here pretty soon, now that we're out of snow season. That'll be the last one until we get some more. But it's a punchy little runabout that has been fairly reliable for me. Unfortunately, those early JK-- they don't have the best durability reputation.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BYRON HURD: And we have seen some of the issues with-- I think my father had to replace the brakes twice for issues-- not for wear, but for problems. And they're acting up again for me, and I'm in the process of replacing them. And we're talking replacing the calipers entirely or rebuilding them-- whichever is more convenient. So far, it's just been replaced because they've been cheap.
But I'm at under 55,000 miles, and it's on its third brake rebuild, which is just not-- it could be worse-- and this is a vehicle that spent most of its life kept outside, until my folks moved to New Mexico. It was never garaged or anything like that. So that's tough on a car, especially if it's a winter beater that's going to see nothing but salt and snow and stuff like that for half the year, and then the occasional top-down cruise in the summer. So it lives a pretty easy life, but it gives me enough trouble to keep me on my toes anyway.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that sounds odd-- the brake stuff. I don't know what to say about that.
BYRON HURD: It's a common issue with the JKs, and they've got some others, too. And also, just-- when you drive a new Jeep-- because we only get a new Jeep once a decade-- a new Wrangler, that is-- the new ones always feel like luxury vehicles compared to the old ones. And the JL does feel much, much, much nicer. So my father went from a two-door JK to two-door JL. When I go visit him-- he also went to an automatic, and that eight speed's pretty solid.
The six-speed manual in my JK is awful. I compared it to stirring bucket of rocks. And I've offered several people on staff-- I'm, like if you want to know what a truly bad manual transmission feels like, borrow the Jeep. Take it around the block. You'll understand. It doesn't take much. And honestly, that's something that has always been a thing, is-- refinement in a Wrangler was never a priority. And it's only somewhat recently, with Sahara and some of them getting more expensive and appealing to a broader audience, that creature comforts have really mattered.
It's not a car you buy because you want to be coddled. It's a car you buy because you either just like the idea of a convertible 4-by-4 or because you want to take it off-roading. So you have to live with the drawbacks. And unfortunately, a two-door, 10-year-old Wrangler has quite a few of them.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that's-- it's funny. I went on one are the updated Wrangler drives back-- it was on the Rubicon-- in 2012, I guess it was? And I remember we were driving some of the older versions, and I was like, wow, this is a pretty big step forward. What they do, a little bit, with like the interior and some of the refinements.
And it's still relatively rough, but it's, like-- it's never more stark in that like the start of a new generation, or even a refresh, where you're like, wow, this is what we were doing, and now this is what they're doing. OK.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that manual transmission-- God, I used to drive that thing at-- the VFCA and the Chrysler open houses that they used to do out at their Proving Grounds in Chelsea, Michigan. It's fun because you can drive everything they make. And I always wanted to get behind the wheel of maybe like a stick-shift Wrangler just to be like, oh, what's this like? Then I'd come to the press week. Like, all right, yeah, I remember what this is like. This isn't great. I'm going to go take the automatic and go off-roading or something.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, if I remember correctly, the sis-speed that's in the JK Wranglers was sourced from Mercedes, from their commercial vans. So it would have been like the sprinter manual transmission in Europe, and probably was paired to a little diesel of some kind and probably the five-cylinder diesel that we saw here.
So designed for torque, which is great, because they are-- as far as I know, they're pretty bulletproof. They're just miserable to drive. There's no lock-out, really, on reverse. So when you're cruising down the highway, going from fifth to sixth, which I have do a lot because I have the really tall fuel economy gears in mind, because my father's cheap-- thanks, dad.
You can accidentally bump reverse, and it just grinds at you. And it's really easy to do it. There's really no lockout. There's nothing even, really, nudging you in the right direction. Your muscle memory has to do all of it. If you're tired, if you're just not paying attention, it's easy to bounce it off Reverse trying to shift to top gear, which is just ridiculous. But it's a Jeep and a 10-year-old one, so--
GREG MIGLIORE: First time I did the Rubicon, I did it in a four-door Wrangler. It was green with a stick shift, and that was a lot of work. Let's put it that way. It was a lot of work. It was big. It was challenging to get through all those rocks. It was a little bit like being in a car crash for about 13 hours. Got out of that, and you're ready to have a drink around the campfire, but it was awesome. Great memory.
Speaking of memories, it's the Mustang's 59th birthday. It's not really a real milestone. But it seems like the Mustang is really top of mind these days. Happy birthday, Mustang. Do you have any Mustang-- really memorable experiences?
BYRON HURD: I've got a few. I owned a 2015 GT for a couple of years and tracked and autocrossed that a little bit. That was an absolutely wonderful car. I actually thought I was going to keep that car forever until I banged it up at some point. So that was the beginning of the end of Mustang ownership for me. And it's one of those cars where I always look back and go. I think, one day, I'll probably end up with another one again.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BYRON HURD: We were just having this conversation, actually, in Slack this morning-- myself and Palmer and a couple of others, just talking about the new Mustang and our favorite Mustangs and looking back at that one. I think, for S550-- for the outgoing generation, the 2016 is probably my sweet spot, because before they refreshed it but after they updated sync-- if I'm remembering the model year right. It might be '17, but either way, because the 2015 was the first year. That's the one I had. And it still had the old version of sync. And it was-- eh, it was fine.
But if you get into a '16, it's like the primo spot before you get into the really aggressive price creep and everything like that that we started to see over the last few years. So it's the last affordable Mustang GT and one that I'll forever be a fan of.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I mean, since they've gone retro, it just seems like the car keeps getting better and better. Some people might say it's almost a bit too much, some of the variance in the styling. But that's up to you. If you don't want them, don't get them. I think it's still one of the best values you could get, just for an enthusiast who wants to have fun. It's V8 power. You can get stick shift. It looks like a Mustang-- everything there. The Mach-E is there for you, too, if you want a very solid electric car.
Man, I've had a lot of good memories with Mustangs, to be honest. The one that maybe stands out-- almost on a personal note, I remember driving my grandmother in a 2008 or '09 red convertible in the press fleet. I thought it was a big deal because it looked like a big-deal car. Right, one of those days where the sort of like fall is turning, but it's all bright-- and she loved it.
She must have been-- jeez, what year was that? She was probably into her 90s, but more than happy to throw on an Irish sort of cloak and jump in the car, and away we went. And she had a great time, and I did, too. That was a good era of Mustang, and it really has only gotten better.
I would like to own a Fox Body Mustang, at some point, too, in my future. I think they're still somewhat affordable. It's not really-- in my current situation, I don't have room for one. I definitely don't have the time to deal with it. But I don't know. If I could like blow $10,000 on a car, I think getting one with some miles on it that would be fun for a couple of summers-- that would be cool.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, I'm with you there.
GREG MIGLIORE: Cool, all right, well, we've got a few more orders of business to take care of. One thing that I came across that was cool this week that, if you like cars-- a lot of people who like cars also like gear and watches. I listened to this podcast called "The Grey NATO," and they did an auto episode this week.
So if you search for it-- I have no relationship. This is not an affiliate thing. I just thought it was cool. So if you like cars, you might want to listen to their automotive episode. I think they do a good job over there, talking about dive watches, field watches, the kind of thing that you might wear when you're driving your sports car and you don't care if you smash it up, so-- the watch, that is, not the car. So I think it's a cool episode if you're interested. It's a cool podcast. So what-- do you want to spend money, or do you want to talk beers? Your call, man.
BYRON HURD: I mean, both, really, but-- [LAUGHS]. We could probably spend money pretty quickly.
GREG MIGLIORE: Let's do that. $15,000 to get on a rear-wheel drive coupe or sedan. How you spending your money?
BYRON HURD: So this would have been a lot easier like three years ago because I would have had a list. So I'm going to answer for myself first. This is a weird fetish car that I've wanted for a while. And I think I'm going to end up with one just to say I did it, and that's an old 3.8-liter Genesis Coupe. Weird car.
They didn't take off, and it was for good reason, honestly. They're really fun to drive, but there are a lot of reasons why they're not great tuner or enthusiast platforms. And that's way too much to get into here. But it was a brand new car with brand new everything. Took a while for the aftermarket to get its teeth into it. And I don't think it ever went very far, especially because it ceased to exist.
But my backups to that would be a Scion FR-S. You can probably get one of those just under if you go with the early years. But I think the Subaru BRZs, just because the BRZ, as a name, still exists-- have slightly higher resale value for some reason. Probably just search demand, because people don't think to search for Scion FR-S because it's not a current car. So use that to your advantage. I've seen them listed for like 12, $13,000 with-- you're going to get them with miles, but they'll be fine. I wouldn't worry about that.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, those are good choices. I remember driving those Genesis Coupes. They were a lot of fun. They were ahead of their time-- maybe not ahead of their time. When they came under the market, they filled the void where there still were not that many high-performance or just sporty things for enthusiasts. We were still getting out of that tail end of that '80s and '90s malaise, if you will?
That was a fun car. I had a great time with it. The Turbo Four was a riot. Stick shift was pretty good. It looked good. Yeah, I mean, Genesis, Hyundai, Kia-- they've-- Genesis wasn't even its own brand at that point. They've gone after enthusiasts, and that's a cool thing.
I'll throw a couple of things at the wall here. I'd say-- if you like the charger or 300 or the Magnum or the Challenger, I guess-- but I would probably think Charger or Magnum for this amount of money, see how much of it you could get. It's going to be used. It's going to probably be 10-ish years old. You could definitely get a V8 for that kind of money. So there's that option.
Then, in the back of my head, I was almost thinking of 20-year-old cars, but I didn't put that as a criteria here. And it tended to lean domestic. So the car in my head was actually the Pontiac G8 GT. If you want a Pontiac, you want a rear-wheel drive V8 Pontiac, you can still get one. You're going to get a lot of miles. You're talking six-figure miles. But it's a unique thing. It's a fun thing. It's not that much money to spend on a car that you will probably-- that's probably not going to hold up very long. It's not something you're keep in your garage, but you can be the guy who drives it until maybe it goes to some high school kid or something-- or college kid. But I thought they look cool.
BYRON HURD: And if you want something like that that's even more of a throwaway-- just you mentioning that made me think of this. A couple of weeks ago, I think I saw a used police-issue Caprice-- so an SS but not an SS for pennies. I mean, it was V6, I'm pretty sure. I don't think it was one of the state highway Patrol ones, which actually could be an option with the LS3-- I don't remember which one it was. But you could get a V8, I think, in the pursuit models, but this wasn't one. And it was relatively cheap.
Now, granted, when you're buying police surplus, there are a lot of things to consider. But I mean, the mileage and the wear the hours on the powertrain are just the tip of the iceberg for something like that. But for cheap-- for something that, theoretically, should hold up pretty well, considering its intended use-- that could be a fun buy.
GREG MIGLIORE: This is just fun rear-wheel-drive cars, is what we're kind of talking about here. If I wanted to spend more money, yeah, I'd go for an Impala SS from like '94 to '96. The Chevy SS is not bad, too. I wouldn't mind owning one of those, but they're expensive.
BYRON HURD: Yes. Yeah, you're lucky you can find one of those for under 40.
GREG MIGLIORE: I don't think I'd pay 40 for one of those. Would you? You might. You own a Cadillac Blackwing, so you might.
BYRON HURD: Honestly, like I thought about a used SS before the Blackwing, but it just-- I know a lot of people think that the Blackwing should have come with the V8 before, but I don't know. They're very different cars, and I didn't want another V8 at that point. So it's-- eh, maybe, maybe.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I hear you. There's other things ahead of it in the pecking order. If it was 20, I would be 100%, but it's 40. Considering there's many drawbacks of that car that-- I don't know. We'll see. There is somebody at Cars and Coffee, off of Woodward, if you will, that has one that has-- I think it's Vauxhall badges on it? No, wait, that's not right.
BYRON HURD: Could be Holden.
GREG MIGLIORE: Holden badges-- that's what I meant. And it's got to be he swapped out the badges-- that's all I can think of, what he did. But that's cool
BYRON HURD: I think you can just swap the bumpers. You don't even have to be too picky about it. As the paint finishes and everything, I'm pretty sure all the codes match. You can literally just pull a bumper and ship it across the pond and, [SPITS], you're good to go.
GREG MIGLIORE: There you go.
BYRON HURD: I got a nice wave. When the weather warmed up last week, I took the Blackwing to pick my partner up at the airport. When I was on my way to get her, I was at a at a stoplight, and somebody was coming the other way in a CTS wagon, one of the big CTS-V wagons with drag tires on it. And I acknowledged him, and he waved back. And when the light turned green, he flew past me at full throttle. That was a lot of fun. Springtime in the Detroit area is a great place to be if you like performance cars.
GREG MIGLIORE: So after you've parked your car, you're relaxing. Darkness is falling. What are you drinking in the spring?
BYRON HURD: So on my way back from the airport, it was my first beer run of the season. And actually, I went pretty simple. This is going to be completely nonsensical for the time of year. But I actually-- I found an old Ohio brand that I liked-- Rhinegeist. They're based out of Cincy, I'm pretty sure.
And I found they had-- they have a whole line of beers that are all like themed around reality, and they have like Truth and things like that. So they have an Imperial IPA that I picked up that I'm a big fan of. And I also just went with another of my go-tos, which are the Bells Amber.
GREG MIGLIORE: Nice. When I was in New York for the Auto Show, I had a Montauk IPA. What do they actually call it, specifically? Wave Chaser IPA, so that's a really solid drink. There was like this random beer cart if you will just out on the sidewalk, so I bought one and sat at just-- these like tables and chairs set up and-- set up in the Flatiron District and really enjoyed it. It was good beer.
And yeah, I don't know if that's anywhere-- available anywhere else but New York, but it's a good beer if you're in the Northeast and you want to try it. So yeah, good way to send it spend a nice spring evening. Let's put it that way.
All right, we hope you're enjoying the podcast. And if you are, please give us five stars on Apple-- Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get the show. Send us your Spend My Moneys. That's podcast@autoblog.com. Be safe out there, and we'll see you next week.
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